IRC Conference log

Learning Through Participation
by Ian Lynch
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[ianL] Ok I'm assuming everyone is now on slide 1
[ianL] Slide 1 - The Native American Proverb provides a link to the idea of community participation. Learning through participation is the theme for the INGOTs. Its also very attractive to educationalists and their professional values.
[ianL] Slide 2 - This is just an index of what is to follow.
[ianL] Slide 3 - INGOT is an acronym International Grades in Office Technology. It means something in English! - A gold bar full of value ;-)
[ianL] In German Barren, Dutch BAAR, Spansh LINGOTE, French LINGOT, Portuese INGOT, Italian INGOT, so very similar in quite a few languages. I hope it doesn't have some bad meaning in any language I haven't found yet :-)
[ianL] Note that INGOT certificates are independent of any particular software in terms of the skills required. They are only dependent on the OpenOffice.org community insofar as the community service aspects are concerned. But more of that later.
[ianL] Slide 4 - Bill Gates wants a Windows computer on every desk. I want everyone on the planet to have at least one INGOT certificate. If there was a dollar revenue from everyone on the planet we would have plenty of money for OOo development, probably all the development on generic FLOSS applications. Ambitious perhaps, but if you don't try you don't succeed!
[ianL] Teaching children about FLOSS and how to take part in projects will guarantee the next generation of contributors. They can also be productive while they learn. This provides us with more human resource and motivates the children because their work can be recognised and is genuinely useful to others.
[ianL] Slide 5 - We do not have a lot of capital to invest so we need methods which do not take a lot of time initially but can grow easily across the world. While it would not be difficult to get Venture Capital, VCs would want to grow the business then sell it. We need to keep control to ensure that substantial parts of the revenue go into Open Source development and furthering the OpenOffice.org cause. Non-profits also cause problems and as a small business we get s
[ianL] ome support from the British Chambers of Commerce to support export development.
[ianL] Slide 6 - The INGOT website is at www.theINGOTs.org. So are INGOTs just another IT couse and exam? Let's see.
[ianL] Slide 7 - The first INGOT I designed was the Bronze. It was easy to do and will be the certificate done by the most people. Its very simple but a lot of thought has gone into making it simple. We want to make it as easy as possible to take part. We want everyone to be able to do it.
[ianL] Slide 8 - The criteria are practical and lend themselves to be accredited by direct observation. Operating a computer is a practical activity. It might be convenient to have a written test about operating a computer but would it be valid? It would certainly bey bureaucratically expensive.
[ianL] Slide 9 - The criteria are there to be shared with the students. There is no secret about them. We want students and teachers to discuss them, to develop their language and communication skills, to learn through this interaction. This is education, not training.
[ianL] Slide 10 - The certificates build progressively on each other. We give rewards for early success to motivate the student. We tell the student what she needs to do to be successful and we provide practically useful outcomes from the learning to further motivate the student.
[ianL] Slide 11 - We make the learning process contribute directly to our project.
[ianL] Slide 12 - We accredit good practice that should already be there but often is not. Most children will have to build a simple web site as part of their school studies at some time, but here in the UK nothing is said about using appropriate tools or testing for compliance with standards. At this point we don't need to be too rigorous but we can flag up the principle. "You should not try and use MS Word for everything"
[ianL] Slide 13 - I hope you can see that although simple, there is a lot of good education pedagogy in the INGOT certification. Ok, onto Gold
[ianL] Slide 14 - A unique requirement of the Gold INGOT over all other certificates is the requirement to participate in an Open Source project.
[ianL] Slide 15 - At this level it probably won't be contributing code although there is no exclusion of this. There are plenty of things to do without the need for coding.
[ianL] Slide 16-18 - This series is an example of how a pupil contributed a useful teaching resource for maths in OOo Impress. Most schools in the UK use data projectors now so it makes sense to provide those things that used to be written in chalk as professional presentations and make these available for home use using free software and creative commons licensing. We can structure and organise these resources on the INGOT website using the work of the students and so
[ianL] me funding from the certificate fees. We then will have a sustainable and ever growing bank of free educational resources that run on Open Source software.
[ianL] Slide 19 - We can povide support for students using mailing lists. This teaches them how to participate and takes pressure off hard-prerssed teachers. We also have a discussion forum on the web site.
[ianL] Slide 20 - By popular demand from primary schools we have just developed My First INGOT and the concept of Otto's club for 5-7 year olds.
[ianL] Slide 21 - To administer the certification we use the web site with a database to store the names of certificated students and each certificate has a unique number and entry against which it can be authenticated. INGOT assessors are all trained by an assessor trainer and I have personally trained all the assessor trainers travelling around the world to do it.
[ianL] Slide 22 - Ok, not everything is FREE as in beer. If you want an official certificate you have to pay a few dollars. We will soon have a system on the website so that assessors can buy certificate credits through paypal or a similar mechanism. They can then award certificates to suitably capable students. By keeping the costs low and getting large take up all over the world we hope to generate substantial sums to put back into development.
[ianL] Slide 23 - We only launched properly in September after some pilots. Considering the lack of resources and the fact that I have to do this development alongside other work, I'm very encouraged by the rate of progress. We already have Polish, translation and some Romanian with promises of Spanish. Obviously things have gone quicker in the UK because I know the system here better and I can exploit particular initiatives. A solid basis in the UK can help finance de
[ianL] velopment further afield.
[ianL] Ok, that#s it. I hope I got the pace OK for everyone - questions?
[DanielC] Very good timing Ian.
[Jzarecta] great
[lgodard] clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap :)
[Peschtra] APPLAUSE!
[simonbr] applause
[DanielC] APPLAUSE
[jeanw] applause
[brko] interesting....
[ianL] Bows modestly
[jrahemipour] thanks, ian!
[DanielC] heh
[Agerskov] Great presentation
[lgodard] Great work
[DanielC] Now we are in the Question and Answer period.
[Jzarecta] good I got some:
[Jzarecta] Q: A major flaws of the computer courses is that they want to push the application as the solution ot all challenges. For example, using a spreadsheet to create a website, or code on a word processor instead of a text editor.
[ianL] Yes using the right tool for the job is an important INGOT theme
[ianL] But we often have to teach teachers as they don't know any better
[ianL] So we start gently
[ianL] Anyone else? :-)
[pseudo_daoist] Q: For the web page creation project do they have to use an HTML editor? Can they use a regular text editor (VI, EMACS, VDE) with the appropriate HTML tags?
[Agerskov] When designing a website with 5 pages you tell that open standards are importent and then you tell them to test the site with 3 browsers - why not http://validator.w3.org ?
[Peschtra] Why is the service requirement on for OOo. Shouldn't it be for any free Office suite or any free program?
[Agerskov] Peschtra: I second that
[ianL] They can use anything appropriate. Its probably simpler to say we don't accept MS Pubkisher because that is probably the most common bad practice we come across
[Peschtra] I think MS Word is an equaly bad HTML editor.
[Peschtra] Why not make them use HTML in notepad or somthing?
[ianL] These are beginners starting from scratch. We want them to understand the principle that more than one web browser needs to be supported . We will scare off the teachers if we make it too complex too early
[lgodard] Agerskov: validator is great, but the aim of three different browsers is to know alternatives
[simonbr] Does INGOT prescribe or suggest certain teaching materials?
[ianL] In practice we would accept a student working on say Mozilla, but since I need to support them and I am on OOo its easier to be specific
[Agerskov] ianL: I would suggest two browsers and W3C's validator
[Peschtra] Is that in reference to my question about which project to volunteer for?
[Jzarecta] where did the spreadsheet gets introduced in the INGOT
[ianL] No INGOTs is an accreditation frame work not a course. This is deliberate. If you try to force new courses into an over-crowded curriciculum you will fail
[ianL] We keep things as open and as inclusive as possible to maximise our client group
[ianL] We will be creating support materials but these will always be optional
[khirano] ianL: Can you tell us what you are going to do in Prague in detail, how long will you stay there to do it?
[ianL] Spreadsheets come in Silver
[khirano] Can you come to Japan and do the same?
[brko] I think that this is a great idea.... I work for a company (steel industry), which has switched to OpenSource few years ago. And one of the big problems is, that when we employ a new person directly form school, the only thing the know is Microsoft and usually they are supprised, that something else exists. In case this certificate would be obtainable here in Slovakia I would definatelly put it on the requirement list for job application in our company.....
[Peschtra] Is slide 20 the bronze requirements?
[simonbr] Are there guidelines about what sort of software and materials can be used to attain a certain certificate?
[lgodard] Is there some system that alloows to say that is silver/gold at on place/time is the same at another ? Does it make sense ?
[Jzarecta] I think also this is a great program for senior citizens, handicap resources
[ianL] I will be in Prague from tomorrow evening to the following day. I am relying on Robert to direct the time. Main objective is to train Robert as an assessor trainer but this doesn't take long so we will also enjoy Prague :-)
[artietee] ianL: Is INGOTs comming to The Netherlands soon ?
[artietee] ianL: Are you?
[ianL] Slide 20 is below bronze. Its for the little kids. You can download the handbook with all the specifications from www.theINGOTs.org. All CC license
[Jzarecta] ianL: how many organizations got in the USA?
[technomajian] Have any other open source projects, such as Mozilla, indicated an interest in contributing to or participating with INGOT?
[Peschtra] ok
[ianL] No guidelines on software apart form it should be appropriate eg not Publisher for web sites. We want to get to the die hard MS users so let them take part using MS Office. They will have to also install OOo for educational reasons ;-)
[ianL] I haven't approached other projects - LPI are interested in cooperating with a Platinum INGOT. Its really time I'm short of!
[Peschtra] Who is "supposed" to pay the fee, the students or the school?
[ianL] Yes we have got interest from Adult education. I was a bit surprised but some people see this as a far better framework than ECDL/ICDL. Its certainly less expensive and more flexible
[khirano] ianL: how did you get supports or subsidy from british government?
[ianL] Fee payment will depend on the locality, clients etc. In the UK the schools pay. I have also arranged it so that schools can use grants that are normally targeted at proprietary software ;-)
[ianL] I am encouraging people to set up small businesses to teach basic IT skills and charge for their time. The certificate fee is then negligible compared to the teacher's costs
[Peschtra] I was just thinking, this could incorporated into the normal teaching of most schools' business classes, but the fee may be prohibitive.
[Peschtra] It would be nice though, because this is the kind of thing that might look good on a college app for someone entering into a computer/business field.
[ianL] INGOTs will come to the Netherlands or indeed any country when someone says they are interested in being trained. I will come at no expense to the host country and do the training. I was in Slovenia with Urska to-day. Czech Republic with Robert tomorrow
[artietee] ianL: Thanks for your well prepared talk
[ianL] INGOTs are designed to be incorporated with existing courses. We are flexible on prices. We can vary that to suit the local economy. I have just used prices that I know UK schools are prepared to pay.
[artietee] everybody: bye
[Peschtra] What is 2 pounds in Dollars roughly
[ianL] $4
[Jzarecta] ianL: so if you train others in this country, then there is no need for you to go back to that country?
[Jzarecta] unless the trainer can't for any reason.. I guess
[Peschtra] How long would you for see it being before an INGOT certificate was recognized as an "accomplishment" by unviersities and such when applying to college?
[ianL] In prionciple I train assessor trainers who are then able to train other assessors. This is out quality control and we need it as I will later approach the UK exam authorities for official recognition
[pseudo_daoist] Q: Are you still desiging the Platinium level?
[ianL] Haven't started with Platinum simply because of time but we have Birmingham University CS department involved and possibly LPI. Its less urgent because it will affect fewer people.
[Jzarecta] ianL pseudo_daoist : any outline on what Platium will intend to achieve?
[Jzarecta] ok
[ianL] Programming contribution
[pseudo_daoist] thanks
[ianL] I don't want people to get too hung up on costs. To start with everyone can do some certification free to try things out. We need an income though for development so we have to charge something.
[Agerskov] Could FLOSS participation also be error reporting?
[ianL] Of course
[ianL] Anythng that is useful to a FLOSS project
[ianL] Help on the OOo Users list
[ianL] That would be a good way to learn
[khirano] How can I introduce INGOT to Japanese people, translation of INGOT website into Japanese?
[ianL] I welcome anyone who can do translation. We can come to an arrangement where if someone does the translation, we will give free certification credits in return
[ianL] Start small, build incrementally from grass roots. This is the bazaar, not the cathedral
[Peschtra] Did you mention alreayd where the funding is currently coming from? You are doing a lot of travel.
[ianL] My company and the UK government
[Peschtra] cool
[ianL] This is why we have to make it sustainable by having a business model to generate income. I have a lot of contacts and influence in UK education so its easy for me here but that also provides us with a platform for international development
[ianL] I seriously believe we can earn enough income to provide all the resource needs of the OOo project and more.
[Agerskov] Leaving
[ianL] This makes us a lot less dependent on Sun which I thnk most people believe is desirable
[DanielC] Agerskov: thank you for comming
[ianL] yes thanks everyone
[Jzarecta] good talk ianL
[jeanw] Thank you, Ian. I'm sorry I was late. I'm looking forward to getting the IRC log so I can read what you said before I arrived.
[ianL] If anyone wants to be trained as an assessor just contact me by private E-mail
[ianL] Think you have heard most of it before! :-)
[pseudo_daoist] Doesn't one need to know how to do everythin that the Gold or Silver Level requires, before applying tobe an assesor?
[jeanw] True, but in bits and pieces, not all organised with slides -- I didn't see your presentation in San Diego.
[technomajian] Well, I need to run as well. ianL, a wonderful talk! I look forward to hearing more about INGOT. Keep us informed, and again, thank you for your hard work!
[DanielC] technomajian: Thank you for comming :-)
[ianL] You can become a Bronze or Silver Assessor trainer. Yes you would have to know whow to do the things but in general I think anyone capable of IRC would find Bronze easy
[Peschtra] I think a big problem tha tthe program faces is the mindset that schools need to teach the students MS or else they won't be ready for life. I guess INGOTs incorporates that, but what plans do you have to soften people towards accepting FLOSS and OOo?
[ianL] That is part of the strategy. You can do Bronze on MS Office. No worries. But for Silver you need to burn an OOo CD and for Gold you need 25 hours community service. We take out the emotiveness of the technology politics.
[Peschtra] What does that last sentence mean? emotiveness?
[ianL] INGOTs educate people about FLOSS and OOo. Let them then decide after they are educated
[ianL] Emotion taking over from rationality. We can't immediately kill emotion so lets not try. Lets do it gentler and from a starting point everyone can accept
[pseudo_daoist] ing
[Peschtra] ok
[simonbr] Thanks Ian, bye
[ianL] A key feature of the INGOTs is to lower the barrier to entry for even the most relucant. A lot of thought has gone into this aspect and it fits Christensen's disruptive technology theories
[Peschtra] makes sense
[ianL] Its why the criteria are kept as simple as possible but guiding the main ideas of freedom. These are difficult concepts for the uninitiated.
[Peschtra] Yeah, there were for me. :)
[ianL] I think we too often try to take too big steps with people who are not ready to take them. Some people are but most aren't
[jeanw] IanL: I agree on that!
[DanielC] :-)
[ianL] INGOTs -----> OOo-------->Linux
[ianL] And let's take some money of MS users to develop FLOSS :-)
[jeanw] Need to do things(and introduce ideas) in ways that have meaning for people when they are doing them.
[DanielC] yeah!
[jeanw] Yes!
[khirano] it is important to get as many people as possible touch an idea of FLOSS.
[khirano] yeah!
[ianL] I like irony, I'm a Brit ;-)
[DanielC] :-)
[ianL] If you think education is expensive, try ignorance :-)
[DanielC] heh
[jeanw] indeed
[ianL] khirano, I have always wanted to visit Japan so we need to work out a way of getting INGOTs in to Japan. I have had an interest in Japanese culture ever since studying Judo :-)
[DanielC] :-)
[khirano] ianL: sure, let us think about it :)