IRC Conference log
Non Profit Organization (NPO) to Support OpenSource Developers
by Kazunari Hirano
[khirano]
I will start in 5 min., is it ok for you all?
[jrahemipour]
Yes, certainly
[khirano]
If you want to have Slides of my presentation, please go to get it there:
[khirano]
My .sxi is here: http://native-lang.openoffice.org/conference/
[khirano]
let me start :)
[khirano]
Hi all,
[khirano]
Thanks for coming. :)
[khirano]
And very sorry for being late to upload my presentation.
[khirano]
My .sxi is here: http://native-lang.openoffice.org/conference/
[khirano]
I have been travelling around Japan to meet people
[khirano]
whom I would like to ask to join, and to discuss with them about vision of NPO, OpenSourcers (tentative name) and our dreams.
[khirano]
Becase I think it is very important that NPO founders trust each other.
[khirano]
I have just been back from Tokyo.
[khirano]
OK, let me start my presentation.
[khirano]
Slide 1:
[khirano]
My talk will be on Non Profit Organization (NPO) to Support OpenSource Developers
[khirano]
Slide 2:
[khirano]
My talk will be short. I would like to have your advises and comments, more time for Q & A and discussion.
[khirano]
After my presentation I have questions for you.
[khirano]
Please think about these questions while seeing, listening my presentation.
[khirano]
My questions are:
[khirano]
What NPO law do you have in your country?
[khirano]
Are you planning to establish an NPO?
[khirano]
Do you know contributors, developers or translators who need financial or material help?
[khirano]
What do they need, What do they want?
[khirano]
Why are you working for OpenOffice.org the product and the community?
[khirano]
What is your motivation?
[khirano]
Do you think that money can help OpenSource development? :)
[khirano]
Here is the Agenda
[khirano]
Speaker Introductions
[khirano]
Japan
[khirano]
OpenOffice.org Ja Native Language Project
[khirano]
Japan OpenOffice.org Users Group
[khirano]
What we really need
[khirano]
What if we have money
[khirano]
NPO Law in Japan
[khirano]
NPO Activity
[khirano]
and Q & A
[khirano]
Slide 3:
[khirano]
My name is Kazunari Hirano.
[khirano]
When I introduce myself with my full name in Japanese,
[khirano]
I say my family name first, and then my given name,
[khirano]
so I say, my name is Hirano Kazunari.
[khirano]
We use Chinese Characters.
[khirano]
We can't express well without using them.
[khirano]
Chinese Characters are ideogram.
[khirano]
When we see it, we can imagine what it means.
[khirano]
In my name you can see a Chinese Character "One," very easy one to understand :)
[khirano]
My name literally means, "Plain Field, One Success."
[khirano]
Slide 4: Japan
[khirano]
I made this Japan language map based on information given by:
[khirano]
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=JP
[khirano]
I don't think it's a correct map
[khirano]
because their information is old and often incorrect
[khirano]
but it's ok, one of the very interesting view on languages in Japan.
[khirano]
I am a member of the OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project,
[khirano]
I am a Japanese living in Japan.
[khirano]
I am an OpenOffice.org blogger :)
[khirano]
http://openoffice.exblog.jp/
[khirano]
There you can see my face :)
[khirano]
Japan is often called Japanese archipelago or Japanese islands.
[khirano]
Bigger islands are Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku and Kyushu.
[khirano]
I live in "Ichinoseki" City, "Iwate" Prefecture,
[khirano]
northern part of Japan Main Island, "Honshu."
[khirano]
Slide 5:
[khirano]
Japanese Native Language Project
[khirano]
Ja NLP membership
[khirano]
http://ja.openoffice.org/servlets/ProjectMemberList
[khirano]
We have around 800 observers registered and around 20 developers registered.
[khirano]
We form OpenOffice.org Japan Users Group, core of which is OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project.
[khirano]
For this group we have 15 managing staffs,
[khirano]
core of which are OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project members who have signed JCA and have commit rights.
[khirano]
The Users Group has a users mailing list outside the OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project to embrace as many users as possible,
[khirano]
which is openoffce@freeml.com
[khirano]
It has Near 3,000 subscribers
[khirano]
Sure we have Project Mailing Lists:
[khirano]
We use discuss@ja.openoffice.org to discuss about management of the group, marketing, events, and general questions regarding OpenOffice.org
[khirano]
We use translate@ja.openoffice.org for translation works, translation collaboration with Sun Microsystems, OpenOffice.org translation bug reporting etc.
[khirano]
Slide 6:
[khirano]
OpenOffice.org Japan Users Group
[khirano]
It is just a group.
[khirano]
We don't know who are members.
[khirano]
It is not a legal entity.
[khirano]
All activity is based on volunteers.
[khirano]
We don't have accounting function.
[khirano]
We can't receive money.
[khirano]
When we need money or have a chance to receive money,
[khirano]
we ask an individual, a staff member, to voluntarily open a bank account.
[khirano]
The group often creates OpenOffice.org CDs and distributes free to people at events and conferences in Japan.
[khirano]
When we organized the OpenOffice.org Conference Japan 2005,
[khirano]
a company wanted to contribute to us.
[khirano]
A staff member asked a CD manufacturer to press hundreds of OpenOffice.org CDs and pay for them.
[khirano]
And after the conference, the company donate the amount of money what he paid to his own account.
[khirano]
This was heavy burden and risk for him.
[khirano]
Slide 7:
[khirano]
What we really need
[khirano]
We don't want money.
[khirano]
We want People
[khirano]
We want Developers
[khirano]
We want Translators
[khirano]
We want Contributors
[khirano]
We want Motivated people
[khirano]
We want to have quality OpenOffice.org
[khirano]
We want to contribute to society
[khirano]
We want Communication
[khirano]
We want to Help people
[khirano]
Now do we need Money?
[khirano]
Slide 8:
[khirano]
What if we have money
[khirano]
We don't work for money. :)
[khirano]
But what if we have money:
[khirano]
We can get more contributors, developers and translators.
[khirano]
Skilled developers are busy. :)
[khirano]
We can ask developers to share their time.
[khirano]
Tools are needed for development.
[khirano]
We can provide them with equipments.
[khirano]
Developers need information and exchange of ideas.
[khirano]
We can help them go to conferences.
[khirano]
We can do a lot of activity you can imagine :)
[khirano]
Marketing activitiy, Organizing activity....
[khirano]
Slide 9:
[khirano]
NPO Law in Japan
[khirano]
It was enacted on Dec. 1, 1998 and revised on May 1, 2003.
[khirano]
The revised law simplified the application and grant process.
[khirano]
Under the NPO law, Japanese government grants a volunteer group as a legal entity
[khirano]
What is benefits to become an NPO, a legal entity
[khirano]
Can open a bank account as a group
[khirano]
Can open an office as a group
[khirano]
Can register its real property as a group
[khirano]
Can perform other various legal action as a group
[khirano]
Slide 10:
[khirano]
The NPO law provides Authorized NPO.
[khirano]
National Tax Agency grants an Authorized NPO.
[khirano]
If individuals and organizations donate to the Authorized NPO, they don't have to pay tax for the donation.
[khirano]
The law provides expansion of tax breaks for donations.
[khirano]
It facilitates individuals, companies and other organizations to danate to NPOs :)
[khirano]
Slide 11:
[khirano]
NPO requirements
[khirano]
NPO must have certain purposes
[khirano]
such as promotions for welfare, social education,
[khirano]
for local community, academic and scientific research,
[khirano]
for environment, security, human rights, children,
[khirano]
for information society, economic revitalization,
[khirano]
for employment, consumer protection, etc..,
[khirano]
which benefit general public
[khirano]
NPO is like a company
[khirano]
A company makes money for profit.
[khirano]
NPO makes money but not for profit,
[khirano]
which means NPO members don't share profit.
[khirano]
Not more than 1/3 of board members get compensation.
[khirano]
NPO must have at least 3 bord members and 1 auditor.
[khirano]
Slide 12:
[khirano]
NPO should have Business Plan:
[khirano]
They may be:
[khirano]
OpenSource Software Development
[khirano]
OpenSource Software Localization
[khirano]
Translation
[khirano]
Publication (e.g."OpenOffice.org Magazine" with CD)
[khirano]
Design Usable and Beautiful Computers
[khirano]
Research
[khirano]
User support
[khirano]
Consulting
[khirano]
Events, Conferences, Campaign, Fundraising
[khirano]
Slide 13:
[khirano]
We will find out good, skilled, honest contributors,
[khirano]
developers and translators from OpenSouce communities and other fields.
[khirano]
We will meet them and discuss what they want to do,
[khirano]
what they need and what we can do together
[khirano]
to develop OpenOffice.org and other OpenSource Software.
[khirano]
We encourage them to work together and provide them with what they need by giving them resources, information, money, etc.
[khirano]
We encourage them to join our activity and dispatch them to the conference by giving them transportation and accomodation.
[khirano]
Slide 14:
[khirano]
I would like to focus on Translation Works.
[khirano]
Translation is essential to Japanese OpenSource Communities.
[khirano]
to provide developers with information
[khirano]
for good communication with world developers
[khirano]
to motivate developers to join development works
[khirano]
For example: TCM (Test Case Maintenance)
[khirano]
When 1.9.79 test, Japanese Version TCM registered testers were 3,
[khirano]
as TCM test cases was all in English.
[khirano]
Then TCM test cases have been translated in Japanese.
[khirano]
1.9.95 Japanese Version testers increased to 11.
[khirano]
Japanese Translation facilitates Japanese contributors and developers to join OpenOffice.org activity.
[khirano]
Slide 15:
[khirano]
What would the NPO like to do in future?
[khirano]
to help world OpenSource developers
[khirano]
to help communication and collaboration between various OpenSource communities and businesses
[khirano]
OpenOffice.org Aynu Localization
[khirano]
OpenOffice.org Klingon Localization
[khirano]
Verious localization works
[cloph]
??
[khirano]
Host OpenOffice.org Conference in Japan
[khirano]
and to help all the projects you can imagine.. :)
[khirano]
correction: Various localization works
[khirano]
I would like to add some future projects to the slide.
[khirano]
Under the NPO law, NPO can establish a school.
[khirano]
So the NPO would make a school to educate OpenSource developers and send them to the society.
[khirano]
cloph: let us talk about Klingon later :)
[DanielC]
:-)
[khirano]
So the NPO would make a school to educate OpenSource developers and send them to the society.
[khirano]
And the NPO can set up a research institute for OpenSource Software, attached to the school.
[khirano]
Slide 16:
[khirano]
Thanks for your attention and Q & A :)
[khirano]
simple questions please :)
[cloph]
So what about klingon? Do you really meant the klingon from the enterprise-series?
[khirano]
cloph: yes!
[cloph]
I really wonder who will (or better can) use an Office Suite in klingon... :-)
[khirano]
cloph: so let us talk about it later, one reason is that it is fun!
[khirano]
that's all, and I can think of marketing purpose :)
[gautehk]
Thanks, khirano, this was both interesting and familiar because we already have a foundation/NPO that funds OOo work in Norway. Where will the Japanese NPO get money?
[cloph]
..But according to german wikipedia it is a registered language! And there even is a wikipedia in klingon :-) but enough about this... Sorry for disturbing/being off-topic :-)
[DanielC]
khirano: Is this the Q&A now?
[khirano]
gautehk: the NPO do business and ask companies and local governments, japanese government to donate.
[gautehk]
khirano: Sounds very familiar (and sensible)
[khirano]
the NPO publishes magazines and others, and sell them.
[khirano]
the NPO collect membership fee, also.
[khirano]
cloph: it's ok. I want to discuss about it later :)
[gautehk]
khirano: who are members? Individuals or large-scale users (companies/organizations/government)
[khirano]
gautehk: Both
[khirano]
they would be members. they can join the NPO as individuals and organizations.
[khirano]
And membership fees would vary
[khirano]
the NPO can decide the membership fee for individuals and organizations.
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Do the NPO members get an allowance for their work?
[khirano]
the NPO can employ staffs, who would be paid, allowance.
[DanielC]
It could employ developers and documentation writers! :-)
[khirano]
DanielC: right!
[DanielC]
:-)
[DanielC]
I'd like that a lot. I think it would help OOo to have more developers, and in particular, some who aren't tied to any company.
[DanielC]
Even if we don't hire people full time, if we just hire a couple of guys part time, that would be something.
[DanielC]
Or we could work on commission.
[DanielC]
Like, get someone to write SVG import. :-)
[khirano]
DanielC: thanks for good ideas
[DanielC]
Yeah, that might work well. Comission would work for a beginning NPO.
[DanielC]
khirano: Is your NPO setup already?
[gautehk]
For comparison, here's briefly what we do: The Norwegian foundation employs part-time translators. It has no membership fee. Some of the board members represent large-scale users.
[khirano]
NOT YET!
[DanielC]
ok
[cloph]
SVG-import already exists as a xslt-based solution (at least it was started)
[DanielC]
cloph: Yeah, but it needs work.
[DanielC]
gautehk: You have an NPO already?
[gautehk]
DanielC: yes, for a year or so
[DanielC]
cool.
[DanielC]
Do you now other projects that do too?
[DanielC]
I think I heard that French NL has one.
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Don`t you think there will be conflicts of interest if there are developers who are employed and others who are not?
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: How so?
[khirano]
jrahemipour: I am thinking about it too.
[gautehk]
Volunteers do the fun stuff, paid employees do the boring work. (Basically :-)
[khirano]
So we will meet developers and ask them whether they want to be supported or not.
[khirano]
and the NPO will open all the information it has, whom it supports and others
[jrahemipour]
Germany has such a NPO too... but we have problems to separate between "NPO interests" and "own business interests" of the members
[khirano]
jrahemipour: the NPO will help their communication and understanding
[jrahemipour]
Its not the problem of the members, more the critical voices you hear in the de-community
[khirano]
jrahemipour: yes, it is. we have to think about it. but I think we can solve the question by communication and mutual understanding
[jrahemipour]
Whats about the ja-community? How does they think about it?
[khirano]
Not all the people among ja-community think that the NPO is the best solution
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Yes, thats right. Communication between community an NPO is very important. It`s very important to have strict rules how to handle with the earned money
[khirano]
The present ja-community can not handle money at all.
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Do they have alternatives? Or do they think, its not important to handle with money?
[khirano]
But we know we have to have some measure to handle money and to further develop our works and community
[khirano]
jrahemipour: No, they don't have alternatives, I think.
[jrahemipour]
khirano: That`s true... we concentrate on marketing activities at the moment, I don`t think, we can manage it in the next years to employ people
[khirano]
I think they are OK with present situation to do the same as past.
[khirano]
But I think we have to do more to keep the community survive and be active.
[khirano]
Actually it is difficult to keep motivation of developers and translators among ja-community.
[jrahemipour]
khirano: How did the qa-community increase in the last two years? Do you know, how many observers and developers you had 2 years before?
[khirano]
jrahempour: I don't know exactly how many
[gautehk]
khirano: I can imagine motivation being difficult. OOo is a lot harder to work on than most other open source projects.
[khirano]
but OpenOffice.org development so far is itself very interesting and we got many users.
[DanielC]
khirano: I guess it's an issue of making it easier for developers who are already interested to not be distracted by "work".
[DanielC]
khirano: Kind of like what they did for Linus.
[khirano]
DanielC: it is true :)
[DanielC]
hhmm... maybe this also leads into "who do we hire?"
[DanielC]
The NPO would hire people who have been working for a while and have shown commitment.
[khirano]
it is the most important question.
[DanielC]
But that wouldn't address problems like hiring someone to finish SVG import. That is, problems for which no current member can help.
[DanielC]
It's a difficult question. Discussion is good.
[khirano]
We have to meet them and discuss.
[khirano]
To meet them, we have to travel, we need money :)
[DanielC]
:-)
[DanielC]
If you focus on local developers it might be easier.
[DanielC]
Or... you can arrange for "potentials" to go to OOoCon.
[DanielC]
Hhmm... I like that idea.
[DanielC]
Pick a few people who are good contributors and sponsor them to go to OOoCon.
[DanielC]
Then meet them there.
[khirano]
sounds good.
[DanielC]
Even if you don't "hire" them later, you still did something valuable with that money.
[DanielC]
You know what I mean.
[khirano]
yes, definitely
[DanielC]
:-)
[jrahemipour]
I only see the problem... "who decides it" and how to prevent, that the others not think to get a raw deal
[Magi]
I've heard that SVG is hard to implement? Possibly it can't be done with XSLT at all.
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: I guess that you need some sort of committee. So no one person can choose arbitrarily (or be /seen/ to choose arbitrarily).
[khirano]
jrahemipour: You have the OpenOffice.org non profit association in German, right?
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: But no matter what you do, someone will always be upset.
[DanielC]
Magi: I hear that an "ok" filter is doable, but a "complete" filter is very hard.
[DanielC]
Magi: But I don't know.
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Yes we have... and we have exact this kind of problems with it
[khirano]
jrahemipour: I would like to share knowledge and activity with yours
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: How do you decide right now?
[jrahemipour]
DanielC: We don`t decide much at the moment. We focus on marketing activities. We pay for things, the members had to pay for theirselves before
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: Ok. That's still a good way to spend the money. You don't *have* to hire people.
[DanielC]
(IMHO)
[jrahemipour]
We have a "board of directors" (Vorstand), who decides, how to spend the money... we are 3 persons
[DanielC]
I see.
[jrahemipour]
DanielC: But its always the problem, not to be inequitable
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: I don't envy your position. No matter what you do, someone will be unhappy.
[jrahemipour]
But we surely spend money for community members who are not members of the NPO
[DanielC]
So all one can do is minimize the number of unhappy people.
[DanielC]
ok
[DanielC]
Perhaps it's safer to "sponsor" people so they spend less money themselves? Like taking them to OOoCon.
[jrahemipour]
But this is a problem too... we have laws, that we are not allowed to spend too much money for non-members
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: Do you have a lot of complaints over how DE-NL spends money?
[jrahemipour]
DanielC: Yes, we had terrible discussions about it in the beginning of this year
[DanielC]
:-(
[gautehk]
(unstable network ...)
[jrahemipour]
But it was at a time we did not spend much money at all. We were at the beginning of our activities... and it slowed down our motivation...
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: May I ask what the money argument was about? Or do you prefer to not discuss it?
[hfischer]
This is hot stuff.
[DanielC]
ok
[DanielC]
let's not get into it then.
[jrahemipour]
DanielC: No, its ok! But I don`t know the arguments exactly.
[DanielC]
ok
[hfischer]
I for myself can't explain the discussions exactly.
[cloph]
The main problem with this whole discussion was that it was not arguments that were discussed but personalities.
[jrahemipour]
cloph: Yes, that`s right
[DanielC]
:(
[DanielC]
But that's not a fundamental problem with NPO's. That can happen with any kind of decison.
[jrahemipour]
Its a problem to get active people for the work at a NPO... the others mistrusts them and think, they only have personal interests
[DanielC]
oh
[khirano]
Trust, it is important.
[DanielC]
Yes.
[cloph]
The only "money" related thing was that there was a sponsered weekend in a hotel (the owner of the hotel sponsored the stay, the members only had to pay for food/drinking). Members of the e.V. had to bay 5 € less. But this really was a very marginal point of the discussion.
[hfischer]
For me was the foundation of the german NPO not really anchored at the online community. The right communication between a very active group and the online volunteers was missing. So I think. That is my personal opinion, I speak only for my self.
[DanielC]
hfischer: So they felt left out.
[hfischer]
Yes, I think so.
[DanielC]
Ok.
[DanielC]
Well... we've learned something. That when you setup an NPO it's important to involve as much of the community as you can.
[DanielC]
And not just do it yourself.
[hfischer]
DanielC: Yes.
[jrahemipour]
We didn´t do it ourself in germany. But not all community members noticed it
[jrahemipour]
Its a difficult topic... involving the community is very important, but you have to make a decision sometime
[hfischer]
It is a arduous way to communicate special facts all over the net and through mailinglists. Some people want to get results very quick, but that is not even possible in a online community who could speak together realtime.
[khirano]
hfischer: it's true.
[AietKolkhi]
Hello DanielC, Khirano, Helga and everybody. I am sorry I was not able to join earlier. The topic seemedvery interesting, so I will have to see the logs I guess :)
[jrahemipour]
We talked about the foundation for more than 2 Years...
[DanielC]
AietKolkhi: Good to see you.
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: That seems like plenty of time...
[DanielC]
Of course, I don't know the details.
[khirano]
jrahemipour: you started a local foundation actually, it is a good progress.
[khirano]
we start a NPO in Japan and would get some experience.
[jrahemipour]
Another point is, that the people who are not only working online, spent a lot of money for fairs and so on, so they saw many good reasons
[khirano]
We can share our knowledge and many things.
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Yes, certainly. Feel free to ask, if you have questions!
[khirano]
jrahemipour: yes I will :)
[khirano]
I am happy to get some good ideas and experience here :)
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Will you attend the next OOoCon?
[khirano]
the NPO would start next month
[khirano]
I hope. I am writing Business Plan of the NPO now:)
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Oh, good! Please don`t hesitate to contact us
[khirano]
I will make another presentation about the NPO's experience.
[jrahemipour]
That would be very interesting
[khirano]
OK, thanks all, I will go to bed now.
[khirano]
May I see you all at the next OpenOffice.org Conference?
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Goodnight! And thanks for the interesting presentation
[DanielC]
khirano: Good night!
[khirano]
Are you coming? to France or Slovenia?
[DanielC]
Thank you for the talk!
[khirano]
you are welcome
[khirano]
DanielC: I am helped by you :)
[DanielC]
:)
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Yes, I will be there...
[khirano]
my pleasure, all, thanks, good night.
[gautehk]
khirano: Thanks for the talk. It's quite possible I'll come too.
[DanielC]
jrahemipour: Maybe I'll be there this year too. :-)
[DanielC]
I'd love to meet everyone.
[jrahemipour]
DanielC: That would be fine
[khirano]
gautehk: that's good! I will see you face-to-face. it will be nice.
[hfischer]
khirano: Thank you for this presentation. It was very interesting for me.
[DanielC]
clap clap clap clap clap clap
[DanielC]
:-)
[hfischer]
clap clap clap clap clap clap
[khirano]
Thanks all, again, and I am looking forward to seeing you face-to-face, offline :)
[DanielC]
yeah
[khirano]
I would like to hear your voices :)
[jrahemipour]
khirano: Ciao...
[khirano]
I would like to shake hands with you.
[khirano]
good night, all
[hfischer]
Good Night.
[jrahemipour]
Bye all...
[DanielC]
bye
[DanielC]
thank you for comming
[DanielC]
Nice "meeting" you.
[DanielC]
:-)
[jrahemipour]
dito :-)
[jrahemipour]
"See" you next time...
[DanielC]
yeah
[DanielC]
bye bye
[DanielC]
:)