| [AietKolkhi] | All right :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | Soo again, hello everybody |
| [AietKolkhi] | my name is Aiet Kolkhi and I represent Georgian Native-Lang |
| [AietKolkhi] | and today I will be talking about my opinions |
| [AietKolkhi] | rregarding software piracy and how it can influence open source |
| [AietKolkhi] | Please have a look at the Slide 2 |
| [AietKolkhi] | I guess we all know what Piracy means |
| [AietKolkhi] | its definition is "The unauthorized copying, distribution, or use of another's production esp. in infringement of a copyright" |
| [AietKolkhi] | Unfortunately Piracy rate is very high in many countries |
| [AietKolkhi] | Such countries include many asian and esatern Europian countries, |
| [AietKolkhi] | as well as some African countries |
| [AietKolkhi] | Overall, the piracy is an issue in almost any country |
| [AietKolkhi] | In my homeland, Georgia, piracy is so high |
| [AietKolkhi] | that one can barely find a computer with legal, licensed software on it |
| [AietKolkhi] | The siuation is changing and I hope we will have licensed software |
| [AietKolkhi] | within the next two or three years |
| [AietKolkhi] | Now, if you take a look at the Slide 3 |
| [AietKolkhi] | it listed some issued that could be considered as negative onfluence on Open Source products |
| [AietKolkhi] | I have met some people who think that piracy is not an issue for Open Source and |
| [AietKolkhi] | it would not have big influence on FOSS development |
| [AietKolkhi] | this is, in my opinion, not exactly correct |
| [AietKolkhi] | We all know that software patents is a not a good way of supporting FOSS development |
| [AietKolkhi] | but Copyright is something different. |
| [AietKolkhi] | In Georgia, about 95pc of desktop pcs use proprietary, commercial software |
| [AietKolkhi] | which is closed soruce and is installed without proper license |
| [AietKolkhi] | The negative think about piracy is that is creates all the propriatary software accessible to everyone free of charge |
| [AietKolkhi] | Closed-source products lead huge advertising campaigns |
| [AietKolkhi] | dominate the software market worldwide |
| [AietKolkhi] | and having the tools accessibla free of charge |
| [AietKolkhi] | makes it mor dfifficult for open source products to emrge on the market |
| [AietKolkhi] | So, I guess it's kind of a Foul Play |
| [AietKolkhi] | its not a healthy competition |
| [AietKolkhi] | The last item on the list is |
| [AietKolkhi] | Open Source and Open Source Only? |
| [AietKolkhi] | what I am trying to ask by this is that |
| [AietKolkhi] | Open Source still neeeds some time before it can exist without commercial software |
| [AietKolkhi] | Today, there has to be some propriatary, commecial software |
| [AietKolkhi] | which will hire many programmers |
| [AietKolkhi] | and also create a competition for Open Source |
| [AietKolkhi] | it may change in the future, but this is how it is today, I guess |
| [AietKolkhi] | now, having a look at the Slide 4 |
| [AietKolkhi] | I believe we could find some |
| [AietKolkhi] | positive aspects for FOSS development in a countries where piracy rate |
| [AietKolkhi] | is very high |
| [AietKolkhi] | Having unlicensed sofware means having so official support |
| [AietKolkhi] | No comany would prefer to have illigal, unsupported software |
| [AietKolkhi] | and countries with high piracy rate are the |
| [AietKolkhi] | countries that do not have a booming software market |
| [AietKolkhi] | and companies from theese countries will not like to spend thousands on software |
| [AietKolkhi] | So it should not be very difficult to help companies and governmential/ nongovernmential bodies |
| [AietKolkhi] | to migrate to FOSS products |
| [AietKolkhi] | illigal software means |
| [AietKolkhi] | that the copies installed on the machines |
| [AietKolkhi] | are not only unsupported, but also |
| [AietKolkhi] | one can not verify the soure of the installation media |
| [AietKolkhi] | in Georgia, there exists thousands of different "versions" |
| [AietKolkhi] | of propriatary software, like |
| [AietKolkhi] | commercial operating systems |
| [AietKolkhi] | some versions are lite cds, that have been modofied to fit on a single cd |
| [AietKolkhi] | some have modified dynamic libraries, that change sme |
| [AietKolkhi] | functions of a product |
| [AietKolkhi] | of course, some of them are "hacked" versions, meaning security exploits |
| [AietKolkhi] | and whenever a company faces a security problem, |
| [AietKolkhi] | they can not call the official support number |
| [AietKolkhi] | as they can not verify the correctness of the installation soures |
| [AietKolkhi] | so, having a legal product means |
| [AietKolkhi] | having supported product |
| [AietKolkhi] | and using a FOSS product menas |
| [AietKolkhi] | means |
| [AietKolkhi] | support community of many users |
| [AietKolkhi] | verified installation sources |
| [AietKolkhi] | open and secure structure |
| [AietKolkhi] | And the key issue why a company or a body will be hapy to migrate to FOSS products is that |
| [AietKolkhi] | sooner or later, the situation in the country will change and |
| [AietKolkhi] | they *will* have to buy the license anyway. |
| [AietKolkhi] | And having a FOSS products means you will be protected in the future, no matter what the country legislature is |
| [AietKolkhi] | Nonetheless, piracy is a huge problem |
| [AietKolkhi] | is prevents software development |
| [AietKolkhi] | it menas that local markety is very poor |
| [AietKolkhi] | and the users often lack the awareness of the FOSS products |
| [AietKolkhi] | Now, at Slide 5 |
| [AietKolkhi] | you can find a few ideas what we could do |
| [AietKolkhi] | to help the development of FOSS products in piracy regions and countries |
| [AietKolkhi] | I am afraid I can not offer a full solution |
| [AietKolkhi] | maybe we could come up with some ideas together later, but |
| [AietKolkhi] | here are some of them I could think of, having Georgian experience :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | First, I guess there is no general rule, and every approach |
| [AietKolkhi] | should consider the local environment, |
| [AietKolkhi] | local mentality, traditional and cultural heritage |
| [AietKolkhi] | Free and Open also means that a product can be |
| [AietKolkhi] | fully localised and can fully suite the local needs |
| [AietKolkhi] | I think Localisation, unlike Globalisation, is a key issue to the development of FOSS products in so many regions |
| [AietKolkhi] | This is what Native-Lang Confederation is about |
| [AietKolkhi] | It would be nice if more FOSS products created similar projects |
| [AietKolkhi] | as NLC not only supports the localisations of a product |
| [AietKolkhi] | but also offers support and marketing to local regions |
| [AietKolkhi] | This gives us an opportunity to study the local environment |
| [AietKolkhi] | study the mentality of a specific language, country and region |
| [AietKolkhi] | and choose the best approach for educating people of the advantages Open Source products can offer |
| [AietKolkhi] | this what I mean by Staying "in Style" |
| [AietKolkhi] | So, having a look at the last slide |
| [AietKolkhi] | Slide 6, that is, |
| [AietKolkhi] | is also a solution |
| [AietKolkhi] | As I mentioned earlier, |
| [AietKolkhi] | I come from Georgia. |
| [AietKolkhi] | In case you don't know, Georgia has five thousand years of knowledge, tradition, and excellence in winemaking |
| [AietKolkhi] | The country of Georgia was famous throughout the "Old World" as a birthplace of viniculture. |
| [AietKolkhi] | So, the best you can do in Georgia is to drink a glass of wine :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | Well, if we ask Hirano, |
| [AietKolkhi] | I guess he will explain the wonderful tradition of Chaji |
| [DanielC] | :-) |
| [AietKolkhi] | :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | the Japanese tea tradition |
| [AietKolkhi] | well, to make it short |
| [AietKolkhi] | all I mean is that in spite of critising the commercial, propriatary software |
| [AietKolkhi] | and instead of explaining how bad they are |
| [AietKolkhi] | and how insecure a specific product is |
| [AietKolkhi] | I believe it is better to do what you believe in |
| [AietKolkhi] | participate in FOSS product developments in any way you can |
| [AietKolkhi] | eduating the people how GOOD the FOSS products are and can be |
| [AietKolkhi] | and doing it the way it is proper and close to the region/ country and culture you live in |
| [AietKolkhi] | could be a solution |
| [AietKolkhi] | and, |
| [AietKolkhi] | I guess this can also be called a Do-What-You-Like-and-Money-Will-Follow concept :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | the keyword here on *love*, not *money* :) |
| [eskroni] | :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | I guess this is what I wanted to say |
| [AietKolkhi] | :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | And I am waiting for your ideas |
| [AietKolkhi] | as Ihave to address piracy issues in Georgia |
| [AietKolkhi] | and it's not very easy :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | So, I guess the "official" part of the talk is over and I would like to hear your experiences and ideas |
| [AietKolkhi] | also, how you have dealt with piracy |
| [DanielC] | :-) |
| [DanielC] | good job Aiet |
| [DanielC] | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| [DanielC] | Thank you for the talk. |
| [southerncross] | very interesting indeed, Aiet! |
| [AietKolkhi] | thanks *ashamed* |
| [southerncross] | why? |
| [AietKolkhi] | thank you :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: I meant emberassed :) |
| [DanielC] | Aiet: Btw, Ian has been here too. He's been sitting next to me during your talk, and he liked it. |
| [southerncross] | ah |
| [AietKolkhi] | Oh, very nice. my greetings to Ian |
| [DanielC] | Aiet: You made a good point about telling people that even if they don't have any problems yet, the might in the future. |
| [DanielC] | We can point out to the fact that Microsoft is moving more and more to clamping down on piracy. |
| [AietKolkhi] | indeed |
| [AietKolkhi] | do we have some one here on the list who |
| [AietKolkhi] | has faced piracy issues in the home country? |
| [AietKolkhi] | I know therehe country of Georgia was famous throughout the “Old World” as a birthplace of viniculture |
| [AietKolkhi] | hmm sorry. I am not used to using GAIM I guess :) |
| [southerncross] | these problems are actually just a matter of time. After having set up most of its political crisis and gone back to stability the country is meant to take off economically and that means more money, so more companies and more commerce, so Microsoft will jump in |
| [DanielC] | So we can tell them, "if you start now, you can play your move with time, if you wait until it becomes a problem you won't be able to move to FOSS overnight" |
| [AietKolkhi] | it keeps posting my old messages |
| [southerncross] | DanielC: but still today they will have the usual problems for migrating to FLOSS |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: yes, adn the sooner they migrate, easier it will be |
| [AietKolkhi] | but surely not without usual problems |
| [AietKolkhi] | Is piracy an issue for FOSS in wetern europian countries? |
| [AietKolkhi] | like England, France, Germany? |
| [southerncross] | of course it is. Everywhere in the world |
| [southerncross] | it's just a matter of percentage, after all |
| [DanielC] | yay, Ian's in! |
| [AietKolkhi] | hello :) |
| [southerncross] | hi |
| [Ian] | better late than never :-) |
| [eskroni] | But they have also problems, when they migrate from one closed software to another closed software. You have problems, when you migrate from Word 97 to Word 2002... |
| [eskroni] | Hi Ian :) |
| [DanielC] | southerncross: Yes. But what would you prefer? To migrate slowly, with a clear plan, or be forced to do something by tuesday? |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: but the percentage will be so low, that I guess it can hardly influence the FOSS products? |
| [pseudo_daoist] | One of the covert anti-piracy campaigns that microsoft is running, is equating the use of FLOSS with the use of pirated software. |
| [DanielC] | southerncross: that's the argument we can make. |
| [AietKolkhi] | pseudo_daoist: interesting |
| [southerncross] | pseudo_daoist: yes, they even use the debian logo to mean "hackers intruding your system" |
| [AietKolkhi] | eskroni: exactly |
| [Ian] | Sue them ;-) |
| [southerncross] | DanielC: of course: what I mean is that even when starting today, you need support and methods |
| [AietKolkhi] | and I forgot to mention that updating the software is really a problem in piracy countries |
| [DanielC] | So, perhaps if FOSS is seen to be strongly against piracy, we can counter Microsoft's propaganda. |
| [southerncross] | we should tell them about apt-get dist-upgrade ;-) |
| [DanielC] | Aiet: yes, that's another selling point of FOSS. |
| [DanielC] | :-) |
| [AietKolkhi] | :) |
| [southerncross] | southerncross loves it too but thinks that Conary is very interesting |
| [eskroni] | Sorry, but you forgot urpmi --update --auto-select :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | how bout YAST? |
| [southerncross] | urpmi rocks. I'm a former MandrakeSoft employee... |
| [AietKolkhi] | I am sure Christian should be fond of it? |
| [DanielC] | Now, Ian was talking about how the INGOTs can solve this in the long-term. |
| [DanielC] | or at least help solve |
| [southerncross] | Yast is good but has no effective CLI commands |
| [DanielC] | because INGOTs is a way of educating kids so they understand the issues better. |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: really? do yo know Pablo? |
| [Ian] | One of the reason the schools market is important is because we can educate the next generation about piracy and FOSS |
| [southerncross] | YAST is very portable though... on mainframes, for instance |
| [southerncross] | Pablo who? |
| [DanielC] | Uhmm... guys? how about we talk abput piracy and not Yast? |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: Saratxaga, the l10n manager |
| [AietKolkhi] | DanielC: sorry |
| [southerncross] | NO, NO NO! YAst is the most important issue at stake at the moment!!! :p |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: I agree. it is indeed important |
| [southerncross] | let's go back to piracy, yes |
| [DanielC] | They are also more visible. |
| [AietKolkhi] | and having FOSS products in schools means having them in the future |
| [DanielC] | It is almost impossible to get "home users" to stop pirating software. But it's easier to get a large organization like a big company or a school to switch. |
| [Ian] | Education might be a bit longer term but if we start later its even longer term :-) |
| [eskroni] | This is a really important point :) |
| [DanielC] | because they are more visible, and there are fewer of them. |
| [DanielC] | You know, let's pick battles that are easier to win. |
| [Ian] | Also there are educational reasons for using FOSS that go beyond price |
| [DanielC] | Large companies, governments and schools are ideal places to try to stop piracy first. |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: the problem in my country is that the piracy rate is so high, that the teachers have probably never used a licensed software, nor any FOSS product |
| [southerncross] | Ian: we have however to make sure that by working on schools we're just not pushing the use of FLOSS, but we're also letting people understand why FLOSS is important |
| [southerncross] | Hello Andre! |
| [Ian] | How can you take part in an international community project with closed source? |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: yes, and having the students actualy participate in the development |
| [DanielC] | AietKolkhi: Yes. No one says it'd be easy. It'd be hard. But trying to get home users to stop pirating would be 10 times harder. |
| [southerncross] | just an example: my own former law university |
| [AietKolkhi] | which is one of the aspects of Ian's great project, I guess :) |
| [DanielC] | So a good strategy is to focus on larger institutions. |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: in France? |
| [DanielC] | and schools are obviously an ideal sector. |
| [Ian] | We have a community resource that gives us a real competitive advantage over closed source in schools |
| [southerncross] | they have linux in the internet zone. Old Suse's. Nobody ever told them why, or how it should be used |
| [southerncross] | AietKolkhi: yes |
| [southerncross] | so people use the computers and then tell you: this computer sucks. It ain't windows. |
| [southerncross] | because the IT Manager is pro-FLOSS but never got the idea to talk with the students |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: interesting |
| [Ian] | southerncross: I was in a school where they set up the Linux GUI to look like windows and ran cross over office. Most of the staff didn't realise they were not using windows |
| [southerncross] | Ian: but that's kind of useless, isn't it? |
| [Thalion72] | southerncross: no it isn'T |
| [Ian] | Not if its a stepping stone |
| [AietKolkhi] | that could be a migration trick :) |
| [Ian] | exactly |
| [southerncross] | right... |
| [AietKolkhi] | but I guess we should also educate people about what they are having on the desktop |
| [Thalion72] | If people ask what FLOSS is .. Hey you are using it all the day ;-) |
| [AietKolkhi] | perhaps at a later stage |
| [AietKolkhi] | :) right |
| [DanielC] | I like the idea of moving people in steps. |
| [Ian] | Its strange to do the Linux bit before the OOo bit but it was an intersting approach. But it needed a very expert person to do it. |
| [AietKolkhi] | besides, most of the people have no idea what FLOSS or commercial products is |
| [AietKolkhi] | and many people have never even used office software |
| [AietKolkhi] | when they start education |
| [southerncross] | yes. Usually you proceed like this: firefox, openoffice.org and then linux |
| [DanielC] | this means we can teach them :-) |
| [AietKolkhi] | exactly |
| [DanielC] | INGOTs! |
| [southerncross] | it's tested real time on my dad |
| [southerncross] | :) |
| [AietKolkhi] | really :) |
| [southerncross] | tes |
| [southerncross] | yes |
| [southerncross] | firefox is the easy part |
| [AietKolkhi] | for graphic designer,s we could also try GIMP |
| [southerncross] | OOo requires more time but you have to let the magic of MS Office XP (crashing all the time) work on the subject |
| [DanielC] | We can do this in steps: start teaching kids the basic issues of open source and open standards in schools. Even if the schools keep using pirated software, they will start becomming aware of alternatives. Then, in the future, they'll be more receptive to a motion to migrate. |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: :) |
| [southerncross] | then, the subject gets red one day about MS Office and you quietly show him the light |
| [Ian] | INGOTs do require people to understand issues associated with open standards. I thought going directly to applications is missing a step for many people. |
| [southerncross] | Linux is still in the works but it's more like learning to dive |
| [AietKolkhi] | correct. and I think not many schools have pirated software |
| [AietKolkhi] | mostly, either they have no computer at all |
| [Ian] | You need to know what roads are before you learn to drive |
| [AietKolkhi] | or they start ecquipping schools with computers, like in Georgia now, |
| [AietKolkhi] | and have to find a legal solution |
| [Ian] | Why is this of benefit to me? Its a question all users can ask |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross, yes, the last one from the olist would be the most difficult, I guess |
| [Ian] | We can easily supply added value answers to schools that are in tune with the education culture |
| [Ian] | Also young people are more inclined and open to change |
| [Ian] | Teachers will go with this if pupils are easier to teach |
| [Ian] | Makes their job easier |
| [southerncross] | AietKolkhi: I recommend the use of a LiveCD |
| [AietKolkhi] | southerncross: good idea |
| [Ian] | Live CDs are very useful |
| [southerncross] | yup |
| [Ian] | I wonder if conventional desktop computers will survive for very much longer |
| [Ian] | It would make migration very much easier if installation time was minimal |
| [eskroni] | Why? There will be many people having their own computer, they can't use a thin client... |
| [DanielC] | eskroni: your computer will be in your phone maybe :-) |
| [Ian] | But it doesn't have to be everyone just a sizable group |
| [Ian] | 3 times as many cell phones are sold as PCs |
| [Thalion72] | DanielC: no .. not mine. I like to phne with my phone and compute with my computer ;-) |
| [eskroni] | Daniel, I don't want to have my computer in my cell-phone... |
| [eskroni] | André, you're right! :) |
| [Ian] | That's just you though |
| [DanielC] | The people who just want to surf the web and check their mail may prefer a dedicated device. |
| [DanielC] | No, you're missing the point. |
| [DanielC] | It doesn't *have* to be a *phone* |
| [Thalion72] | DanielC: and wouldn't need an office suite on this device |
| [DanielC] | I'm talking about smaller, more dedicated devices. |
| [Ian] | I know people already who don't do much other than texting and don't have a land line because its cheaper for them |
| [DanielC] | For example, look at the new tablet from Nokia (the one that runs Linux). |
| [Ian] | I don't bother with a digital camera because I have one in my phone |
| [DanielC] | It can surf the web, check your mail, and there's no reason you couldn't have an office suite on that too. |
| [DanielC] | For my parents that would be *better* than a computer because it does what they need and it's lighter and more portable. |
| [Ian] | If I could run OOo in my phone and just connect to a keyboard and display I doubt I would bother with a laptop |
| [AietKolkhi] | well, even if people switch from desktops to portable devices, the offices and institutions will remain, and linux has been ported to so many devices, like Xbox and iPod :) |
| [DanielC] | My dad is out on the road a lot (he's salesman). If he could run OOo on that device he'd be able to bring his database of clients with him. |
| [Ian] | Offices and institutions will use thin clients - some already do |
| [DanielC] | So my dad would be better off with a dedicated device (running Linux) than a desktop computer. |
| [AietKolkhi] | DanielC: meaning like WIndows CE portables with MS Office comapct? |
| [AietKolkhi] | is there a project dedicated to bringing OOo to portable devices? |
| [DanielC] | So, when you consider dedicated devices, plus thin clients, the market for the traditional desktop starts to look small. |
| [Thalion72] | DanielC / Ian: ok, you both are right, we both are wrong .. thanks for the discussion |
| [Ian] | If a PDA could run all the main productivity tools why would you want to cripple it to stop it doing that? |
| [DanielC] | AietKolkhi: I wish there were... |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: I think I dont fully understand what you mean by "thin". |
| [Thalion72] | Ian: we have TV set able to browse the web for years now ... bot are they sold? |
| [GrahamL] | Ha finally got this damn thing to work. Evening all |
| [Ian] | Hi Graham |
| [DanielC] | Thalion72: It might one day :-) |
| [AietKolkhi] | hello Graham |
| [eskroni] | Hello Graham |
| [southerncross] | hello Graham |
| [Ian] | Microsoft are not likely to try and get people to migrate to PDAs because the sales value of WinCE is much lower than WinXP |
| [DanielC] | Thalion72: Look, we're talking about the future. I know that *today* you wouldn't run OOo on a small dedicated device. But that might change. |
| [DanielC] | as technology improves... |
| [Thalion72] | DanielC: maybe that's what MS so successfull? To think about what might be some day but focus their daily work on what actualy *is*? |
| [Ian] | Microsoft play a big part in the technologies people use. |
| [eskroni] | Daniel / Ian: It depends on you, what you want to do with your computer. I agree, that in large companies, a set of thin clients will be better (and even cheaper) |
| [DanielC] | Thalion72: Hey, relax. This is supposed to be a friendly discussion. And if you look at my day-to-day work, you'll see that it's relevant today. |
| [Ian] | There is no real reason why a company with MS's resources could not develop a PD which would run all the main productivity tools. There is no commercial incentive to do it |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: yes. and market share so big, they can influence lots of things |
| [DanielC] | eskroni: Yes, of course. |
| [DanielC] | eskroni: and I wouldn't imply that *everyone* will want to do xyz. |
| [DanielC] | eskroni: I just meant that I see the desktop market shrinking. |
| [Ian] | AietKolkhi: Exactly |
| [Ian] | But things do have a habit of changing |
| [Ian] | All desktop PCs won't suddenly disappear :-) |
| [Ian] | But if there is a shift of emphasis some big players will have a big problem |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: you are right, but the fact that my friends can buy iMates and smartphones that run portable versions of MS Word and not OOo does not make me happy |
| [eskroni] | But when I see, that you can buy a new computer for about 300 EUR, there's no need for thin clients, even if on these computers is Windows pre-installed... |
| [Ian] | Getting OOo into PDAs could be not just nice but a necessity - think 10 years ahead |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: I agree |
| [Ian] | Try a new computer that's free with your telephony service contract |
| [GrahamL] | Ian: Possibly sooner if the stories coming out of IBM are true |
| [GrahamL] | |
| [Ian] | Google have employed about 100 of MS's office engineers. I wonder why? |
| [GrahamL] | OOo split up into smaller components |
| [DanielC] | There's already an ISP that will give you a free computer if you sign up with their internet service for 2 years. |
| [eskroni] | which ISP? |
| [GrahamL] | In NZ sign up for a computing course and get a free comp |
| [DanielC] | eskroni: I foget. It was one in the US. |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: I dont see why Google empluyed MS engeneers? |
| [GrahamL] | Laptop if its three year course |
| [Ian] | In the cell phone market people are used to getting the hardware free. How do you sustain sellin an OEM OS for 100 Euros in that type of market? |
| [AietKolkhi] | Graham: are you in NZ? |
| [eskroni] | Graham: great :) |
| [GrahamL] | Yes |
| [Ian] | AietKolkhi: Neither do I! But it could be to build an on-line office application to go with Gmail etc. |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian:one has to find a service that would require the monthly subsription and than hardware can be free.. |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: I see |
| [GrahamL] | Only thing is they wipe the OS off when your course is finished |
| [AietKolkhi] | very interesting |
| [GrahamL] | and guess who's OS it is |
| [AietKolkhi] | RISC OS? :) |
| [GrahamL] | LOL |
| [Ian] | As hardware reduces in cost the OS becomes embarassingly expensive |
| [AietKolkhi] | :) |
| [GrahamL] | The University gets a bulk deal on MS software |
| [eskroni] | Graham: I don't worry about this... I'm a Linux-user and have my legal installation CDs at home... |
| [GrahamL] | But only for the period that the student is studying |
| [GrahamL] | It's hard to get Linux and OOO into that situation tho |
| [AietKolkhi] | and propriatary OSs often slow down the hardware development. there is no need to release a processors if it can't be supported by OS |
| [AietKolkhi] | Graham: I know what you mean. MS made the same kind of offer to Georgian education |
| [AietKolkhi] | Graham: offering the OS and Office copies almost free of charge |
| [Ian] | Whatever happens unless MS can increase the volume they are going to be hard pressed to keep the revenue up because they can't put up the cost of Windows any further. Anything that reduces the number of desktop PCs is going to badly affect them |
| [GrahamL] | Yep, they know the art of lockin |
| [Ian] | Alternative technologies won't replace desktop PCs but they could well reduce the importance of them |
| [AietKolkhi] | Yes, but FLOSS should also start addressing the portable device support, as MS and EPOC seem one step further |
| [GrahamL] | heheh Especially when they will do a deal with the indonesian Government for a dollar a seat |
| [Ian] | AietKolkhi: I agree. |
| [GrahamL] | Agreed |
| [Ian] | I have a Psion netBook here that is about 4 years old. Really a Linux version running OOo from ROM and with a fast internet connection and I could certainly dump my laptop |
| [GrahamL] | but then abiword and Gnumeric probably can get there faster than OOo |
| [DanielC] | yes |
| [DanielC] | Let's hope they support the OpenDocument Format. |
| [Ian] | Possibly but they need volume for confidence |
| [GrahamL] | Agreed |
| [Ian] | OOo gets that volume and confidence, ironically, from running on Windows, |
| [AietKolkhi] | Yes. And don't see any reason why OOo should compete with Gnumeric or Koffice. if they get there fast, very nice. It won't make OOo jurney to portable devices a longer sory. on the contrary |
| [Ian] | DanielC: ODF is a vital part of this |
| [GrahamL] | But I think they're too hung up on GNOME.. If GNOME goes onto portable devices... |
| [DanielC] | GrahamL: Abi runs on Windows. And I think Gnumeric is going in that direction. |
| [AietKolkhi] | Graham: hmm, that will be a challending task |
| [DanielC] | Why? |
| [GrahamL] | Yep I realise that but they'll follow GNOME |
| [DanielC] | The new Nokia device runs a window manager based on Gnome. |
| [GrahamL] | not WnCE because of lack of volume... not to mention developers |
| [Ian] | Why not have GNOME on portabl devices? Current cell phones have enough RAM to do it. They just need a faster processor - StrongARM/Xscale could do that |
| [GrahamL] | Cool I didn't know that |
| [DanielC] | I can see Gnome running on a portable device. |
| [DanielC] | wel... |
| [DanielC] | let's say XFCE :-) |
| [DanielC] | I can see XFCE running on a portable device. |
| [DanielC] | Or people could reuse the one Nokia uses, whatever it's called. |
| [GrahamL] | Blackbox... or IceWM |
| [DanielC] | well... blackbox is ugly |
| [DanielC] | and I don't really like IceWM |
| [GrahamL] | heh.. I like minmalist |
| [Ian] | Again how long to make a portable OOo? Let's say 3 years. By then you will have 10 gig of RAM in an affordable portable device. Easily enough to run and store the main productivity tools. Also internet bandwidth will be less expensive and there will be more web based apps. Perhaps even OOo on line via Google ;-) |
| [GrahamL] | Thats the thing.. moores law will catch up to us |
| [DanielC] | GrahamL: Do we *really* need more speed form CPUs? |
| [Ian] | Processors have hot a problem but really RAM ios more the issue than processing |
| [Ian] | hot a problem! Hit - maybe hot is better :-) |
| [GrahamL] | Hell no, but temp control will get better |
| [Ian] | Not if you keep the CISC INtel architecture |
| [Ian] | Windows needs it |
| [Ian] | Well unless MS port to a different hardwar platform |
| [GrahamL] | The VIA 1 gig chip in the miniitx needs bugger all cooling |
| [Ian] | Yes but its not a very fast processor |
| [AietKolkhi] | We do need faster processors, but only for special taks, like 3d rendering. And I heard Shrek 2 was rnedered on RedHat |
| [Ian] | Quite so most people do not need to edit video |
| [GrahamL] | I have one, it's 6 x8x1.5" |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: right |
| [GrahamL] | Lord of the rings was done on Linux |
| [AietKolkhi] | Graham: very nice. |
| [cloph] | GrahamL: Gnome is already on the PDA http://gpe.handhelds.org/ |
| [DanielC] | Most special effects are don in Linux now. |
| [DanielC] | Harry Potter, Shreck, Titanic |
| [cloph] | or better: GTK is, and since gnome is a collection of gtk-apps.... |
| [Ian] | Games - a different issue - largely games consoles which also will weaken the desktop market. Kid buys a games console and hey I can have OOo on here too and access the Internet. Do I really want to buy a desktop PC too? |
| [GrahamL] | Coool... does it have abiword and gnumeric running |
| [DanielC] | cloph: Gnome also has some additional libraries beyond Gtk+ |
| [cloph] | DanielC: Very few. And these are about to disappear. |
| [Ian] | Fact is that most laptops don't actually perform that well compared to desktops but they do well enough which shows that actualy probably a PDA would if people thought in that way. |
| [DanielC] | cloph: really? |
| [cloph] | Yes. |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: I read a TIMES research earlier, saying the use of desktop pcs for private purposed would be dramatically reduced within the next few years |
| [GrahamL] | Ian:Thats why desktops won't go away.. we will have dockable PDAs though that rob processing power from basically a dumb box |
| [AietKolkhi] | cloph: do you know if the project can run on iPod? |
| [Ian] | Laptops can't handle heat as there is no room for a heatsink of any size. They have power management that is a compromise between processor performance so why do we really need all this processing power in an office desktop? |
| [AietKolkhi] | Graham: do you mean like wireless desktopn connection? like VNC? |
| [cloph] | GrahamL: not yet. And a wordprocessor would be pretty unhandy (you at least need external keyboard) |
| [Ian] | Desktops won't disappear, but I believe they will not be the central focus for IT they once were. In fact its arguable that cell phones have already taken that over |
| [AietKolkhi] | cloph: yes. but I have seen an interesting optical keyboard, which is projected on the surface |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: would it be hard to port OOo fully to Java, so that it can be used online, along with Goffice? |
| [Ian] | And folding key boards etc. There are ways around the input problems. Display size is also an issue |
| [GrahamL] | Cloph, that's what I mean. The Desktop will retain keyboard and a lot of computing power. apps on the PDA and storage |
| [GrahamL] | RAM and bigger processor on the Dumb desktop |
| [Ian] | AietKolkhi: Not sure. I suspect a Java implmentation might be slow but I don't really know. |
| [DanielC] | AietKolkhi: You wouldn't need to port it to Java to use it online. OOo could be a server-side app with a Java interface. |
| [DanielC] | AietKolkhi: And OOo already has Java bindings. |
| [Ian] | I would think that if Google are developing they would be using OOo but they might not be keen on people knowing about it |
| [GrahamL] | so your software and storage and a limited amount of processing on your portable, then to give it grunt dock it to a desktop that has ram and processor |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: I see |
| [GrahamL] | Yep why have the programme on your computer when you can pull it to RAM off the net |
| [Ian] | GrahamL: I think a SA/XSCALE running at 500 meg would have enough grunt for any client side stuff. Might even be faster than a current desktop implementation if the server side stuff was well designed to run with it. |
| [cloph] | I think most of the challenge wrt to porting sowtware to pdas is the GUI that needs to fit in that small screen. |
| [DanielC] | cloph: yes |
| [Ian] | cloph: Have an option to plug into a large screen or to tab individual apps on the small screen |
| [GrahamL] | Yep... it works with thin clients |
| [cloph] | Do PDAs support "virtual desktops"? |
| [GrahamL] | will that be the thing, nothing but thin clients that boot up off the net |
| [Ian] | So on the small screen you get individual apps full screen kiosk style. They could have virtual desktops to tab through if running Linux and X |
| [cloph] | (Do PDAs allow connecting an external display at all) |
| [Ian] | cloph: My Psion can take a VGA card in the PCMCIA slot |
| [Ian] | Its al really just a matter of will to design say a USB port and VGA out |
| [Ian] | So plugin a standard keyboard costing 5 Euro and a TFT monitor costing 100 Euro and you have a desktop machine |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: Does your Psion have a color screen? I rememberhaving Series 5 psions 8 or 10 years ago, with portable modem and internet running on it :) |
| [Ian] | AietKolkhi: Yes its colour 256 I think, runing Epoc |
| [cloph] | AietKolkhi: Applications on iPod? I thouight this is a jukebox - how would you use it just with the dial? |
| [Ian] | Given its age, XGA and 24 bit colour should not be hard to do in something designed to-day |
| [GrahamL] | So the question is of course where does that leave the installed Office Application |
| [AietKolkhi] | cloph: you can not use eveything, but I was surprised to see how many tools had been ported to iPod :) |
| [GrahamL] | Is the only people we are going to sell OOo to gong to be Google and /or Yahoo |
| [AietKolkhi] | cloph: not very efficient though. I would not like to scroll for every letter |
| [Ian] | GrahamL: 2 possibilites. On line via eg Google. Embedded in ROM in the device |
| [cloph] | :-) - so its a "nerd thing" |
| [AietKolkhi] | cloph: yes :) |
| [Ian] | I'd go for both. As storage falls in price why not make an Office suite available? Give me a good reason not to? |
| [AietKolkhi] | Graham: OOo could potentially be used on any device that requires office applications |
| [Ian] | AietKolkhi: And even some that might never be used for office apps but that might get used occasionally |
| [AietKolkhi] | Graham: and having open format only supports the versatility of the product |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: yes |
| [Ian] | Yes - in a few years time people are not going to pay even 10 Euros for an office suite. |
| [GrahamL] | Yep but my point is: Why bother if we are going access online. Big advantages. No need for storing the programme |
| [Ian] | But the storage costs zip so it won;t matter |
| [GrahamL] | Ian: Hehe They don't have to now |
| [GrahamL] | True |
| [Ian] | Its getting from a to b |
| [Ian] | They don't have to but they do |
| [Ian] | They take time to learn |
| [Ian] | Technology changes quicker than people |
| [GrahamL] | I can buy 256 meg USB now for less than $20 here |
| [GrahamL] | True again |
| [Ian] | MS prices will fall, its inevitable |
| [Ian] | Can that increase sales volume to compensate? |
| [cloph] | One reason not to run it "off the net" is security. See how many people are not able to set up a secure internet connection. |
| [GrahamL] | Question is will they shift to the OSS model |
| [Ian] | It might in the short term but I can't see it happening in the longer term |
| [Ian] | cloph: That is one reason why both approaches might happen. It doesn't have to be al or nothing |
| [AietKolkhi] | cloph: if people use their mail online, I guess they will not have problems using the documents online. Regular users do not seem to be concerned about security or prviacy |
| [GrahamL] | cloph: a very true thing, but security will be taken out of the users hands |
| [AietKolkhi] | GrahamL: exactly :) |
| [Ian] | GrahamL: MS OSS? Maybe but if they delay too long they miss the boat, too early and they decimate their current business model |
| [GrahamL] | Most of the Linux distros already set up firewalls by default |
| [GrahamL] | Personally I can't see it. Not while they're owned by wallstreet |
| [GrahamL] | Have you seen some of the Blogs thatare screaming for Shwartzs head because of OpenSolaris |
| [GrahamL] | He's pretty unpopular amongst some of SUNs share holders |
| [GrahamL] | MS's Shareholders are addicted to huge returns |
| [cloph] | GrahamL: firewalls don't protect the data outside your computer. |
| [Ian] | They are likely to expereince withdrawl symptoms then ;-) |
| [GrahamL] | The only way it will happen is if Billy and Steve buy up a majority shareholding |
| [Ian] | So just a bit of a summary. I think we need to educate people about piracy and come out strongly against it. We need to press for OOo to go into PDAs - but that is something we as a community proabably can't do too much about. If I make millions out of INGOTs, I'll manufacture the ultimate PDA with embedded OOo :-) |
| [GrahamL] | Cloph: true but it's an example of the responsibility for security being taken away from the end user |
| [Ian] | yes? |
| [GrahamL] | The best thing we can do is support the BSA in all their endeavours |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: very nice idea :) |
| [GrahamL] | Can only be good for OOo :) |
| [cloph] | It was a mobile that synched the data with her personal account on the provider's site. Her account was hacked and the contacts and pictures were spread on the net.... |
| [AietKolkhi] | Oam: I just found a commericial PDa-Linux office tool http://www.handhelds.org/geeklog/links.php?category=Commercial+Software |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: I think we have to make sure they support the open document format |
| [Ian] | GrahamL: I agree |
| [Ian] | AietKolkhi: yes |
| [Ian] | If we actively promote anti-piracy it does us good image-wise as well as boosting take up |
| [GrahamL] | AietKolkhi: Yes to open document |
| [Ian] | Maybe we should form a partnership with MS on this one |
| [GrahamL] | :D |
| [GrahamL] | An alliance with the Devil... Beware of the Darkside Luke |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: yes |
| [Ian] | It would be a good publicity stunt to offer to publicly partner with MS over piracy. If they refused it would be as good as if they accepted :-) |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: interesting |
| [GrahamL] | I do like Win Win situations |
| [Ian] | I'm OK, I have a torch for the darkside :-) |
| [AietKolkhi] | Ian: It was fun seeing Microsoft at LinuxTag, presenting their Unix solutions :) |
| [GrahamL] | I have a half filled box of matches and a wet candle |
| [Ian] | Yes they sent a representative to FLOSSIE |
| [Ian] | GrahamL: But not win dow win dow ones? |
| [GrahamL] | Ian: I'm tryiong to convince Gary Benner to turn the Moodle conf into a sort of FLOSSIE event |
| [GrahamL] | LOL |
| [Ian] | Imagine an open letter to MS in say the Register or on Slashdot inviting cooperation with the OOo community to stamp out piracy. |
| [AietKolkhi] | I afraid I will have to leave. Have to go get back to my work :( |
| [DanielC] | Ian: MS sent a representative to FLOSSIE? |
| [GrahamL] | Only if we're on the winning side no matter the result |
| [AietKolkhi] | Thank you so much for listening to my talk and thanks for the interesting discussion |
| [Ian] | Such a letter might well get syndicated to mainstrteam international press |
| [DanielC] | Aiet: thank you for the talk. It sparked an interesting discussion! |
| [GrahamL] | Thank you and my apolgies for being so late |
| [Ian] | Yes thanks, interesting discussion |
| [AietKolkhi] | Thank you |
| [DanielC] | Ian: It's a neat ida. And we have nothing to lose really. And a lot to win. Just for the publicity value. :-) |
| [AietKolkhi] | hope to see you on next talk and to keep in touch |
| [GrahamL] | Time to go, things to do places to be |
| [DanielC] | take care |
| [DanielC] | thank you for comming |
| [GrahamL] | and it's almost bedtime |
| [GrahamL] | Heh eventually |
| [DanielC] | :-) |
| [GrahamL] | I'll mail you sometime wrt thin client setups |
| [GrahamL] | I'm looking at a school that needs it |
| [DanielC] | yes |
| [DanielC] | great |
| [GrahamL] | Good night |
| [DanielC] | we can exchange notes |
| [DanielC] | good night |